Auto pilot install?

[sharkwaters]

Hi Guys. I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
I want to replace my Benmar Course Setter with a new model that has two station capabilities. My Blackman is an 87 Express and I steer from up top too much not to have the controll up there. The new AP's are expensive. I'm considering the Sitex SP70 or SP80. I still have the Hynautic pressurized hydraulic steering. Its a three hose system. The boat is a straight shaft inboard with a non-balanced K-11 hynautic ram. I think I can still use all this. I want to install the AP myself, all new lines ETC. Has anyone gone this route before? I plan to call Steve for his advice, but the shop is closed untill after the Holidays. IF I get this done, I will have the old system for sale if anyone wants good parts. The Course Setter works great, I need two stations

[Honeygirl]

Sharkwaters, I have the sitex sp70 in my 2003 outerbanks and to say the least I hate it. The unit was recommended by Blackman. It is not user friendly and the instructions are hard to understand. I am very mechanical and do all my own work on my boats. After reading the instructions on the AP I had Blackman do the insulation. The time it would have taken me was not worth it. I should of done my homework more on the AP's before I bought the SP-70. Since then I have used both the furuno and simrad AP's and although they are almost the same, I would of picked the furuno, only because 2/3 of my electronics are furuno. I found both to be user friendly and the instructions were easy to read.

[sharkwaters]

Hi Honeygirl.
Thanks for the honest info. There is a new (06) Blackman on B dock in Dana West Marina (DP) and he has the SP70. That is one reason I considered that unit, along with the price. I don't want to waste money on the wrong unit. Simrad has a new system, the AP16, but the coin is higher than I want to spend. I looked at Furuno and Raymarine. I may need to reconsider my options. How long did it take Steve to install your AP? Does the Sitex steer a straight course or are there other problems? Is your outerbanks a I/O or inboard? Do you have pressurized hydraulic steering? Any info you can share would be appreciated. Having two stations is the most important feature for me, but the unit has to perform.
Thanks for the help.
Bob

[Time Out]

Hay Bob

I have an inboard we installed the sp70 in 2003 like you say the other units are double the price. The thing you should make sure of is this unit multy station capable it was not in 2003. It works fine on my boat my system is the pressurized hydraulic same as yours we installed it ourseves finding the fittings took longer than the install. I think the Simrad is a better unit I just didnt want to pay the price.

I know of two other boats with the sp70. I have heard of problems with the control head we have not had any problems yet.It stears fine the install and control direction are weak we played with the settings for a few trips until we got it. If you decide to use it let me know I will tell you my settings. I think we paid 1100.00 for the unit and another 100 or so for fittings. we mounted the motor next to the pressur can on the transom the compas under the starboard V berth bunk and the computer head on the bridge under the dashboard. Hope this helps

Russ

[Honeygirl]

Sharkwaters. I don't know the exact install time since we had the boat at Blackman for some warranty work so they did the install at the same time. I have an I/O and I think that has a lot to do with my problems. The steering is a pressurized hydraulic system. I do find the outdrive has some play in it and the AP has to keep readjusting for the course I set. The problem is it over-steers and the boat starts to swing back and forth until I have to shut the unit down. I also found unless the water is flat calm the unit will not steer straight. I find you really have to readjust for the conditions you are in. I fish at the Catalina Island 99% of the time. If I sit over night and run my batteries low the the AP will not work until I have almost a full charge the unit takes too much power. It also causes a surge in my lights even under full power. The latest problem I am having is the control head keeps freezing up. I use my boat once a week so it takes a lot of abuse and water tends to get in the bilge in rough conditions which causes moisture to build up in the head.

[sharkwaters]

Hi Russ. Thanks for the reply. Our systems are a close match, if not as close to identicle as possible. The SP80 can be used as the primary and the SP70 as the secondary. Did you run new hose? The fittings for the Hynautic system is a little wierd going together. I had to fix one that had a slow weep. Do you know which steering ram you have? Mine is a K11 or K13, I think. The label is faded. I had to put a kit in it last season. I had some wierd steering issues and found the retaining Nylock nut was loose on the steering ram banjo fitting. I snugged it up and the steering improved.

Honeygirl. Sorry to hear of your problems with your AP. Having a Blackman zig zagging is not good, especially downswell. Thanks for the irea for the amp draw of the motor, that is an important consideration.

I guess I still have some thinking before I make up my mind.

Bob

[NoSlack]

Bob

Back in the day benmar sold a remote for the Course Setter 21 that plugs into the 1/4" jack below the sea state knob. I don't have one but it looks real simple to make.

Nothing more than an auto/manual switch and two push button for steering port or starboard. If something like that would get you by until you pull the plug on the old unit, I'll see what I can do about making one. I probably should have made one years ago for my lower station.

It's suppose to rain all weekend so maybe I'll make myself one.

Mike

[Wizard]

I have the same unit, tied into my hydraulic steering system with pump and electronics under front V-berth. I'm not too impressed with it either. Due to steering slop issues with outboard design, and electronics that oversteers in some conditions, it can be one zig zag of a trip as well.

Just chiming in with my experience.

[sharkwaters]

Hi Mike.

My course setter is the 20R. I can't remember if it has a plug on the front or not. My brother had tracked down a shop that could install another unit in parallel, but the head unit is too large to mount in the electronic bucket that Blackman mounted on the tower. That would have been the cheapest route by far. Your idea to make a plug-in remote is good. I may make a trip to the boat and see if I have the same output jack.

Wizard: I have heard from a lot of people that are unhappy with their AP performance, Bummer. Too expensive to not work right. My course setter would freak out occasionally. I opened up the binnacle to do a service as suggested here. I found that it had a round cable going into a square hole. The cable had a frayed end that prevented the square cable end to fully seat in its hub. I clipped the frayed end and presto, all is good. It runs a very straight course in any sea condition.

Has anyone had experience with the Furuno or Ray marine Ap. Their prices are a little less than the Simrad AP16.
Thanks for all the good ideas and feed back.
Bob

[Malu Lani]

I have the sitex too you need to adjust your rudder speed to stop the zig zag.Set your rudder to fast and it will steer staight at slow speed it don't corrrect fast enought.

Rob

[NoSlack]

Bob

If your unit has a remote jack like mine does, here is what I think we need to do. Let me build one first to be sure.

http://www.bocaboard.com/data/noslack/PilotHouseControl1.JPG

start with a 1/4" 3 circuit RC jack
http://www.oselectronics.com/Images/pg_107/30-401.gif

1 toggle switch with normally open/normally closed contacts
2 push buttons with a set of normally open and normally closed contacts
http://www.bocaboard.com/data/noslack/diagram.jpg

[DOGHOUSE26]

I have the Simrad AP3000 which was the unit before the AP11; it works fine after you replace the nylon bushings in the outdrive and tighten the slop out, it will over-correct with any slop. Mine works better into the swell than with it but what Blackman runs well downswell anyway? A real treat is 2 fatboys on the bridge each with a beer in his hand, the GPS steering the AP for the course home, less than 50 galllons of fuel left in the tank, a little too much trim tab and a 4-6' following sea, now that's entertainment!

I primarily use my AP while trolling or paddy hopping so I can keep a lookout for life when fishing solo; most of the time we drive the boat to and from our destination.

[sharkwaters]

Mike.

I think you have a newer version of the Course Setter. I still have to check, but I think I have the 20R and the display is much different. I hope I have a remote plug like your has. I can tell you are a trained electrician. That schematic looks like one of my techs drew it up.

Bob

[Knot Now]

I second that....but I usually have 3 FAT BOYS on the bridge. LOL.

Also try that after 15 hours of fishing on an 8 hour ride home. Helps keep you awake.

The setting on the Sitex is backwards to me. Fast setting means the rudder rate is slower i.e. its for a more responsive rudder.
Phil

[Honeygirl]

Sharkwaters, I do have a friend with a furuno in a 28 boat with an I/O. He has has no complaints and stated it works great under any condition and has no zig-zag issues. I don't have the model# but will get it A.S.A.P. I talked with another guy with the sp70 and he is having the same problem with the sitex control head freezing up as I am. Seems like a major problem with the sitex. Also Jeff (Fire Escape) just put a new AP on his boat last session and also has a dual station. He is at the desert until tomorrow, I'm sure he has some good info for you to help make your decision easier. Joe

[NoSlack]

Finished the prototype hand held remote tonight. Here in the driveway it works like the wright up in the Benmar manual. If we get a break in the weather this weekend I'll give it the on the water test.

Mike

http://www.bocaboard.com/data/noslack/myremote.JPG

[DOGHOUSE26]

Can I be your agent, I think I can get them made cheaper in Korea probably $1.87 / unit on an order of 10,000 or more..........

[LABRISA DEL MAR]

Mike, how many are you going to make? I am looking for the manual to read more about this. Wonder how many of us still have this auto pilot. david

[NoSlack]

David

You're welcome to come by and pick up my books and make yourself a copy.
If the remote performs on the water like it did in the driveway I'll knock out as many as there is a need for. I've got $25 in this one but I didn't go all out on marine grade switches. Top of the line stuff might run the cost up to $40.

I made mine hand held/portable and I see no reason it couldn't be panel mounted or fixed at the upper station for the guys with the Outerbanks model boats.

Jeff

You're right about Korea being able to under cut my price but I think I'll beat them out when it comes to customer service and waranty.

Mike

[LABRISA DEL MAR]

Mike, Thanks I will look on the boat for the book first,Blackman sent my AP unit in about a year ago,it works great. but with this remote,it sounds all good.Put me down for one, Sea Trail may be ruff this week end. David

[sharkwaters]

Mike. That is the coolest remote!. I'm sure it will work on the water. The course setters may live to ride again.
Bob

[sharkwaters]

Mike.
I checked my model and it is a 21R, but it has a different look than yours and it does not have the jack you will use for the remote- bummer. Mine is a 1987 version. I found two manuals on the boat for the AP. One version (098-0334B) does not show the remote in the manual or on the schematic. The other manual (098-0338F) does show the manual and the schematic has the jack, J7. I can't read a single line drawing at all. Do you think the jack J7 can be wired into my unit? If not, no problem. This has been a good winter time thread and I think you came up with a good solution to the 2nd station option for the guys with the right AP.
Thanks for the help.
Bob

[DOGHOUSE26]

$40 are you out of your mind we could have retired on this one @ $150 a pop!

Customer service was back in the 80s, where have you been?

Warranty? Sell them a 3 year service contract @ $250 and have the Korean Enginneer explain that to them on the 1 800 BLACKMAN PARTS line.


I guesss I've been talking to Steve too much, it rubs off!

[NoSlack]

Didn't give up on me Bob. My schematic page has the number 098-333B on it and in the top center is J2 were the jack is wired to. If you can find something like that on your schematic and verify it's on your board, we're in business. Are you in SD or up in orange county? If you're down in SD and have the time let's get together and I'll look it over. email me at noslack@cox.net or call my cell 619 666-6870

Mike

http://www.bocapix.com/data/512/medium/diagram.jpg

If your board has a 3 pin connector J2 or maybe J7 for your unit, with nothing connected to it, I think we can wire right to that spot and made it work
http://www.bocapix.com/data/512/J2.JPG

[sharkwaters]

Hi Mike. The schematic in my version, 098-0334B looks like the same as the one you posted for limit switch accessory. I will have to go to the boat and look for the J2 or J7 connector. I would need an external plug wired in. I'm in the OC, at Dana Point. I will take a digital camera and snap off a couple of pics.
Thanks for the help.
Bob

[scuttlebutt]

I have the Sitex 70 as I wanted to be able to sit back and drive the boat with out leaning forward. It works great and have no problems with it not keeping course. Two friends of mine have Benmars on there boats and what a pain they are. Trying to get parts has been a real problem for them. I love my Sitex and glad Steve talked me into it as the installation has shown no problems. I set the course in any type of seas with no problem. I drove all the way to my slip using the hand held controller. Did it to see if I could for the heck of it. Waited till a weekday when sail boats were not out in force. The cost was only $1200 at Custom Marine Service. Phantom Marine was very high in there electronics. I bought my whole electronic package from CMS and saved over $2000.

[hijole]

I thought I was the only person with autopilot problems. I think I've repuilt everything 3 times. Each time I think I solved the problem. Then it's the same old thing.
It seems the only pilot that works is the old Benmar. That's the one Don tried to sell me 20 years ago.

[sharkwaters]

Hi Guys. I have been too busy to get back to this thread. Mike. I check my binnacle and I don't have the J7 plug, or at least one that is not used. The Ray Marine AP is not too expensive if I don;t buy the Gyro unit.
Now I have another issue/question.
I have a three hose pressurized Hynautic steering system. I rebuilt the ram two years ago, but now that I looked at the system as a whole and its overall importance. I realize that I'm on borrowed time. The Reservalve and ram are pretty corroded. I'm looking at replacing the ram, reservalve, hoses, and the AP. I'm not sure if the same cylinder and reservalve are still available. My helms are not the vented with reservoirs models. Has anyone else had to replace these parts? Is Steve still using the pressurized system?
I guess I need to call Steve tomorrow.
Thanks for the help, comments.
Bob

[DOGHOUSE26]

I believe Hynautic was bought out by Teleflex, I'm not sure if the rams are still available. I have a brand new Tank in the box(when mine went out I ordered one from Bucklew Marine Service, the guy in SD who works on them; he said 3weeks lead time. After I ordered one from him , I found one in Newport Beach and had it the next day. I believe I paid $270 for it. If you need one let me know or Bucklew might be able to rebuild yours; just be patient with him he does good work, he did my helm station no problems.

[hijole]

Jeff, there's not much to the tank as I remember. There are just a few O-rings, the main one that connects the chingadera (where the hoses connect) below the tank to the tank. I think the problem is that the dirt,greese and grime stays here.
Heres my 2 cents. I have greesed the fitting on the ram because it has a greese fitting. After rebuilding the ram several times I'm convinced we should not greese it or at least as much as I was. The greese would get sucked into the ram and then travel around with the oil through out the system and make everything slippery. I found greese at every corner, the helms, pump, hoses and sitting heavy in the tank. At first I didn't know what I was cleaning when I had the helms and pump apart. Maybe thats why my system would work OK for awhile. I think that would be the reason the chingadera kept sliding around. Since the last time I rebuilt everything it has lasted longer. I now get a small paper towel and rub hynautic fluid on the rod coming out of the ram, NO GREESE. We'll see if that was it.
Don't laugh, I've done everything wrong several times.

[sharkwaters]

Hynautic was bought out by Teleflex and they still make a few of the hynautic systems. There is a difference between the I/O and inboard versions. I have a three hose pressurized system. The heart is the reservalve, which acts as a reservoir and pressure relief. It also aids in purging air, as it is under 40 to 50 psi. It also acts as power steering in that as you turn the rudder. The prices for the parts are expensive. As I looked at the parts, I see 20 years of corrosion. I already rebuilt the steering ram, but the ends are badly corroded. I don't want to be offshore and lose steering.
Doghouse: Where did you buy the part in NB? Are you referring to a reservalve? My part is the RV-60
Thanks Bob

[hijole]

Does the corrosion cause a leak in the air or in the fluid?

The tanks just holds fluid and the relief valve is simple to clean and even replace. It just has an o-ring where it screws into the bottom of the tank. If it's not leaking from there you can keep the same o-ring or replace if it makes you feel better. YOu can't remove the screws for the bleeding. Just back them off and clean them. Just blow some compressed air through the hose connections after you clean them. The tank will be full of junk but easy to clean. If it holds pressure you should be ok.

[DOGHOUSE26]

Hynautic was bought out by Teleflex and they still make a few of the hynautic systems. There is a difference between the I/O and inboard versions. I have a three hose pressurized system. The heart is the reservalve, which acts as a reservoir and pressure relief. It also aids in purging air, as it is under 40 to 50 psi. It also acts as power steering in that as you turn the rudder. The prices for the parts are expensive. As I looked at the parts, I see 20 years of corrosion. I already rebuilt the steering ram, but the ends are badly corroded. I don't want to be offshore and lose steering.
Doghouse: Where did you buy the part in NB? Are you referring to a reservalve? My part is the RV-60
Thanks Bob

I talked to John from Blackman's he says you can still get them from SD Marine Exchange and maybe even West Marine in the catalog.

[sharkwaters]

Doghouse. I have found them on the web for about $600. I will check out SDMX for their price. My steering ram and the Reservalve are very corroded, but do not leak at this time. I will probally just leave in place and hope for the best. Its easy to have spares on board and fix things at sea, but steering is one thing that will leave you stranded.
Hijole: As of now, NO Leaks, just corrosion. I would replace if the parts were cheaper.

Thanks for the ideas.


Bob

[hijole]

I asked about the leaks because I've had both on the tank, air and oil. Of all of the parts on the hydraulic system the tank is probably the easiest to clean and check.
You can’t do anything to the relief valve but clean it. Back off the 2 bolts (you can’t remove them) clean and blow it clean. Then close them down and blow air through each. You can only blow air in one direction when they are closed,both directions when they are open. They each only allow fluid to travel in one direction when they are closed. If you can blow air in both directions (when they are closed) then I would replace the valve.
On the tank just a few things to check but I’m sure it’s dirty if you haven’t cleaned it. I really believe that we have to clean the tank whenever we rebuild any of the other components. In my case I was circulating dirty fluid with grease that was stored in the tank. You may have something else. My system would work OK for awhile after working on part of it.
If you replace the tank without knowing if it has a problem you may not solve your problem. From all of the people reading your original post I think we can all see that some of us have been frustrated with our auto pilot. I sure have.

[sharkwaters]

Hijole. Thanks for the tips and info. My tank has not had a leak or failure yet, it does have a lot of surface corrosion and the pressure gauge has rusted. I have had the fill cap off many times and the fliud is clean, although I have not inspected the inside of the tank. I had a leaky steering ram, that I put a kit in. The steering ram has anodized aluminum end caps with brass hyraulic fittings. These also have a lot of corrosion. My concern is the corrosion on these two critical parts. I have read on a few sites that there is a mil spec hydraulic fluid that has a corrosion additive and this is the best fluid to use. The hynautic fluid is 2nd and ATF can be used, but will have harder steering if used. There are replacement parts and seals available for the pressure tank. I may take that route if the new tank is too expensive. Finding a K11 hynautic ram may be my problem.
I think the issue of wandering auto pilots can be traced to wear or loosenes in the drive parts. My boat has a rudder and it was replaced at the shop recently, so it does not have any slop.

Have you replaced any of the swaged hydraulic lines? I'm not sure where that can be done. I noticed that the pictures of the helm rebuild has compression fittings, which are easier to put together.
Thanks for the ideas and help.
Bob

[hijole]

Tank rebuild
San Diego Marine Exchange has parts for the hydraulic system in stock. They did not have a kit for the tank. I bought the gauge there. I lay an open plastic bag over the gauge so it doesn’t get any direct water that may drip from the top. I use the soap check under pressure to check for leaks.
I think that even though the fluid looks clean, residue lies on the bottom of the tank and can go into the check-valve below.
I’ve never seen what is inside the valve but I know how it works. You remove the valve by removing the bolts below it that tightens it against the bottom of the tank. I think there are 2 bolts about 11 or 12mm. I did it last year. There is 1 o-ring (you said seals) that prevents the leak and holds the pressure between the valve and the tank. That’s all no other seals or o-rings here to replace. You will see a hole from the valve that aligns up to the hole in the tank. When you bleed the system the fluid passes through the valve and any air goes up into the tank.

GLASS LEVEL
One of the most important discoveries I made to solve my problems was here. I went years looking for a leak. After 15 years of problems and fixing things I noticed fluid on the tank. After replacing the gauge twice, o-ring on the fill screw cap and replacing the valve stem I noticed fluid around the tank no matter what I did. I discovered the fluid and air was coming out of the glass area that shows the level of the fluid. On my tank there are 3 small philips head screws that tighten this part against the tank. They were like 4 turns loose each. I was careful not to over tighten. When I removed and cleaned the tank it was hard for me to see inside to check on replacing the rubber gasket that seals this. It’s hard to see if it’s plastic or glass. I think it’s glass so I didn’t want to over tighten and break the glass. If you say you know where to get a kit, it may have this gasket included. I didn’t want to mess with taking the screws off because I don’t know if I would be able to align it and put it back together. Maybe Doghouse can donate his old one and Mike can dissect it with pictures.

Ram
I have replaced the middle and one end of the ram. I did it because the middle section had corrosion inside the cylinder and I thought it was losing pressure. I replaced the end because it damaged it learning how to take it apart. SD Marine Exchange had the parts.
Fluid
Not sue of the fluid you mention but worth looking into. The hynautic fluid is expensive enough and that’s what Don told me to use.
Lines
You mention, “swaged hydraulic lines”. My English is not that good, I don’t know what “swaged” means. I haven’t replaced any lines anyway. I tried like H to clean mine with compressed air only.

Sorry for the long answer

[sharkwaters]

Hijole.

Tank. I was wrong on the rebuild kit for the tank. It does have the one O-ring that seals the relief valve. It looks like the level indicators have a gasket, but it mounts from the inside. Good idea to check the screws.

Ram. I have a K11 ram and it is not available anymore. Teleflex replaced that model with HC5380HY. This is the ram that Blackman uses on the inboard models. Do you have an out drive or inboard model? I need to call SD Marine X to see what they have in stock.

Fluid. I tried to find the part number for the fluid that had anti-corrosive properties, but I could not find it. It was on a message board for Bertram- I think. The hynautic brand is good, just expensive.

Swaged hoses. The hydraulic lines come in tubing style or swaged or crimped. I guess a special machine is needed to make the hoses.
The swaged is 3/8" I.D. and is rated for 1000 PSI, which is good since the relief valve is 950 psi.

Source. Check out charment.com. It has the manuals in PDF form.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Bob

[NoSlack]

I bought a quart of fluid last week and used less than a cup to re-fill my system. If anyone needs to top off the system, your welcome to a cup or 2.

Mike

http://www.foreandaftmarine.com/1-HA5430.jpg

[hijole]

Several years ago I bought a tool to crimp the ends for the hose for my compresor. I'm sure the tool is similar. You put an insert inside the end of the hose and the fitting over it. The tool raps around the collar of the fitting and you hit it with a hammer to crimp it. That was an inexpensive tool at the time. I'm sure they have a special crimper with large handles to give you leverage and save your hammer. If you need them crimped I would check with Blackman, I'm sure they can make your hose.

On the ram, I would check on the specs of the electric motor for your AP. (Simarad recommends a differant motor today than was used 20 years ago,for my AP). The a web site that has the rams indicates the amount of fluid that should flow through the sytem and recommends the motor to macth. Depending on the age of your system check on both.

I have an Volvo OD.

Mike, do we have a good place to buy the HD fluid? It sure has gotton expensive.

[NoSlack]

I picked up a quart at West Marine. At $18 a quart it doesn't take long to cover the cost of the seal kit if you have a bad leak.

Mike

[sharkwaters]

Hijole.

We have electrical crimpers at work, but not hydraulic. Fishing boats unlimited is closer for me. I have studied all the requirements from each manufacturer and the pump model depends on the volume of the ram. The cool thing about the Benmar is it does not require a rudder feedback device.

I have studied a new angle on the second AP. The hand held remote from Benmar is designed for dodging and not course changes. The guys at Benmar can sell me a rebuilt 21R and modify my unit so the two can work in tandem. I can install the 2nd AP in the tower and use both. Cost is $700. My only problem is the electronic box is small, so I would have to fabricate a box for it.

Bob