Import Manager
04-27-2004, 09:05 PM
#0, 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 05:57 AM
I went to use the boat yesterday and found that the outdrive wouldnt tilt down. It was like it was getting no juice. I pulled the switch and by passed it, still nada. Just as I was getting to the point of blindly taking apart the tilt motor top, it decided to work again. I dont trust it. Anyone know what is inside that black plastic top? also is there any maintanence type items inside or do I need to replace the whole enchilada. Thanks for your time.
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#1, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Secret Spot on Mar-08-04 at 07:08 AM
In response to message #0
I have experienced similar issues. I found that if I disconnect the two relays on the bottom of the tilt motor and clean the connection it solves the problem. However, that is on a 290 and I am not sure if the 280 is made up the same way.
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#2, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 08:20 AM
In response to message #1
Yea I am not sure about that either. Mine looks to have a black platic box on top. I didnt open it because the engine box is in the way and would need to be removed to get a driver in there. Wondering if there are relays in that box. I smacked it with a wrench and thats when it started to work again. I learned that wrench smacking technique in baja.
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#3, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Wizard on Mar-08-04 at 08:30 AM
In response to message #2
Isn't that box on top the electric motor on your type of outdrive? I thought the 280s had electric tilt/trim?
The relays on the 290 run the hydraulic motor mounted on the transom.
Glenn
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#4, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 10:02 AM
In response to message #3
Glenn: Yes it does have a black box with a thick grey wire comming out. Are there some kind of relays in there that I should look at. Also, was that you out there at la jolla yesterday towing in someone? Looked like the reel one to me.
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#5, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Mar-08-04 at 12:28 PM
In response to message #4
Doug,
I experienced the same type of problem so I opened up that black box and found a motor and a gear (worm drive) connected to a shaft which raises and lowers the O/D. To my surprise mine was really clean had no problems. My problem turned out to be a corroded ground connector. Once I fixed that I had no more problems. You might try checking the entire length of your wires if you haven't already. It didn't look like there were very many moving parts which could fail inside that black box.
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#6, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 12:37 PM
In response to message #5
Cool thanks Scott. Did you see any relay type devices? I was told there would be 2. One for up and one for down. I guess I will check the ground first. That would be the easiest. Thanks.
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#7, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Wizard on Mar-08-04 at 01:48 PM
In response to message #6
Doug,
Ya, that was me towing someone in yesterday. A friend of my crew lost a fuel pump (or some fuel problem). Had to get him out of the kelp before he drifted in too far. Ended up towing him back to MB.
As for those relays, I think the relays people are talking about are on our 290 hydraulic trim/tilt outdrives. Those relays mount on the bracket right next to the transom mounted hydraulic pump. I can look in the wiring book and see where they are for 280s tonight. Your relays might be up front or something for the electric setup. Will reply tonight if no one else has insight before then.
Glenn
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#8, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by NoSlack on Mar-08-04 at 06:57 PM
In response to message #0
There is no big mystery in the black box. There are 2 relays (up & down) and a limit switch that turns off the motor and light when you're all the way down.
Brian and I just went through his last month when he was having problems with it working intermittently. The most common problems are going to be bad brushes in the motor of corroded connections.
Where it's located, all the water that runs off the back of the engine cover drips right on the tilt motor.
I have a good wiring diagram for the 2 lead motor as well as the 4 lead setup. The drawing is so light I don't think it will scan and
e-mail very well. I'll burn a few copies at work and get one to you if you need to tear into it any further.
If you can hear the motor run but don't get any movement, you need to clean and lube the shaft that extends through the transom.
If all else fails give me a shout and I'll make some time to look at it with you.
Mike
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#9, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Wizard on Mar-08-04 at 07:41 PM
In response to message #8
LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-04 AT 10:17 PM (PST)
I don't have a 280, but looking in my manual that also covers 280s, they do mention the following two things (not sure if applicable, just trying to help):
1. Check blue wire to flywheel housing, that is the ground. It may run through an overload circuit breaker on the transom first on newer models (a recommended add if doesn't exist).
2. Does the motor work if the plastic cover is off? If so, the cover may be pressing against the limit switch. Try to remove part of the cover that is pressing on the limit switch.
Those things are out of the manual for the 280 Electro-Mechanical Tilting Device troubleshooting. Also mentions that the motor will overheat if run up and down repeatedly. Then it takes 1/2 hour to cool down before it will operate again.
Glenn
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#10, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Mar-08-04 at 09:18 PM
In response to message #9
This site rocks! We are all pretty lucky to have this type of forum to help troubleshoot these things. Most of us aren't rocket scientists or volvo scientist (except Mike Jones) but, seems like there sure is a lot of first hand experience amongst us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#12, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by moo fish on Mar-09-04 at 03:14 PM
In response to message #8
Has anyone installed some type of combing to prevent the water from running off the engine cover into the engine compartment? Everytime I lift the cover, I winch at the water running onto the steering mechanism and the tilt motor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#13, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by NoSlack on Mar-09-04 at 05:05 PM
In response to message #12
It's been on my "to do list" for about 10 years now. Never seems to make it to the top of the list before something else pops up.
Mike
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#14, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by noquestion25 on Mar-09-04 at 05:46 PM
In response to message #12
Used some heavy weight plastic, Like car inner tube. The type I used was from a fish pond dealer. Ran a cover over the tilt motor as well as the back of the engine. It is by no means perfect but it keeps the salt off of the trim pump. All the other stuff still gets a freshwater rinse every so often. I could post a pic if you want.
No Question
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#11, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Old_Blue on Mar-08-04 at 10:01 PM
In response to message #0
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-04 AT 08:14 AM (PST)
Mikes right. Mine needed a new set of brushes to cure its last episode. The one before that it was a frozen ram - the shaft that the worm driven gear pushes up and down. The guy at Matex took a look at the motor out of mine and after seeing it was made in sweden asked what it was out of. He didn't have brushes for it and had to make some. New brushes and a shot of paint were 50 somethin bucks and my drive was back in business the next day. Give that ram a shot of lube when your outdrive is in the up position, thats when the ram is fully extended. My preference for lube in water exposed areas is triflow as it outlasts WD40 when exposed to water but corrosion x or something similar would probably be better.
Mine was also surprisingly clean and corrosion free inside the black box. Another area that needed to be fixed was the plug on the end of that thick grey wire. At least one of the connectors in the plug needed to be reworked to firm up the electrical connection. That might be something to keep in mind if none of the other fixes cures it.
Doug, I haven't forgotten about the rigger blanks, I'm just buried - sorry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#15, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-10-04 at 12:56 PM
In response to message #11
Thanks for all the help guys. I will open up the black box (needs new screws anyway) and replace those relays. They are about 20 bucks at west marine. Seems as though there are a lot of different symptoms. Mine was simply dead when I would activate the switch. The light would come on but no motor and no sound. Brian, no worries about the blanks. Just let me know when I can come by or meet you some where. I made a deal with my friends at calstar to run them through their machines and refinish them if needed. I got the new instrument panel in and it looks great. I will post some pictures in a couple of days. Thanks again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#16, Problem Resolved!!
Posted by Captn_Hook on Apr-12-04 at 06:20 AM
In response to message #15
Thought I would post the resolution to the nagging 280 tilt problem. This has been going on since I posted this origionally and I just fixed it this weekend,....errr..well sort of. I checked everything you guys suggested. Wasnt the motor because it would work with a direct connection. Wasnt the damn relays because I bought and replaced them and still the same faint clicking only. I tried Scotts idea of cleaning the ground. Was already clean but did it anyway. Still nada. Decided to check the hot wire. That wire went to a hefty inline fuse and then to the big 40 amp cluser bolted to the block. When tring to unscrew the fuse holder...blink! the wire just fell off in my hand. Inline fuse holder is toast. I rerouted the power to the positive side of the coil and bingo! works. Now, do I need to replace that fuse holder or am I cool with leaving it connected to the coil. Either way is an easy fix now that I know what was the problem. I am still suprised that I would get the relays to click with a bad wire. Must have just been barely making contact. Anyway, thats that.
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#17, RE: Problem Resolved!!
Posted by NoSlack on Apr-12-04 at 08:25 AM
In response to message #16
The tilt motor can draw a lot of current and I don't think the hot wire on the coil is big enough. A 40 amps load should be on a #10 or a fine stranded #12 size wire.
The fuse block is on the negative side if I remember correctly. I would put it back in. You don't want a problem in the tilt motor to take out the power to the rest of the engine.
Mike
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#18, RE: Problem Resolved!!
Posted by Captn_Hook on Apr-12-04 at 01:26 PM
In response to message #17
good advise. I found a new one in the west marine catalog. I will replace. Dont need anymore problems. Thanks again Mike. Now I am on my way to look for some flatties.
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#19, RE: Problem Resolved!!
Posted by To The Limit on Apr-15-04 at 06:38 PM
In response to message #18
Doug: I have the same problem that you had. If you come to the BBQ maybe you could come down to my boat and show me what you did. The motor is OK and I hear the solenoid click when I push the switch. Thanks Dan
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 05:57 AM
I went to use the boat yesterday and found that the outdrive wouldnt tilt down. It was like it was getting no juice. I pulled the switch and by passed it, still nada. Just as I was getting to the point of blindly taking apart the tilt motor top, it decided to work again. I dont trust it. Anyone know what is inside that black plastic top? also is there any maintanence type items inside or do I need to replace the whole enchilada. Thanks for your time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Secret Spot on Mar-08-04 at 07:08 AM
In response to message #0
I have experienced similar issues. I found that if I disconnect the two relays on the bottom of the tilt motor and clean the connection it solves the problem. However, that is on a 290 and I am not sure if the 280 is made up the same way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 08:20 AM
In response to message #1
Yea I am not sure about that either. Mine looks to have a black platic box on top. I didnt open it because the engine box is in the way and would need to be removed to get a driver in there. Wondering if there are relays in that box. I smacked it with a wrench and thats when it started to work again. I learned that wrench smacking technique in baja.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Wizard on Mar-08-04 at 08:30 AM
In response to message #2
Isn't that box on top the electric motor on your type of outdrive? I thought the 280s had electric tilt/trim?
The relays on the 290 run the hydraulic motor mounted on the transom.
Glenn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 10:02 AM
In response to message #3
Glenn: Yes it does have a black box with a thick grey wire comming out. Are there some kind of relays in there that I should look at. Also, was that you out there at la jolla yesterday towing in someone? Looked like the reel one to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#5, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Mar-08-04 at 12:28 PM
In response to message #4
Doug,
I experienced the same type of problem so I opened up that black box and found a motor and a gear (worm drive) connected to a shaft which raises and lowers the O/D. To my surprise mine was really clean had no problems. My problem turned out to be a corroded ground connector. Once I fixed that I had no more problems. You might try checking the entire length of your wires if you haven't already. It didn't look like there were very many moving parts which could fail inside that black box.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#6, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-08-04 at 12:37 PM
In response to message #5
Cool thanks Scott. Did you see any relay type devices? I was told there would be 2. One for up and one for down. I guess I will check the ground first. That would be the easiest. Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#7, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Wizard on Mar-08-04 at 01:48 PM
In response to message #6
Doug,
Ya, that was me towing someone in yesterday. A friend of my crew lost a fuel pump (or some fuel problem). Had to get him out of the kelp before he drifted in too far. Ended up towing him back to MB.
As for those relays, I think the relays people are talking about are on our 290 hydraulic trim/tilt outdrives. Those relays mount on the bracket right next to the transom mounted hydraulic pump. I can look in the wiring book and see where they are for 280s tonight. Your relays might be up front or something for the electric setup. Will reply tonight if no one else has insight before then.
Glenn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#8, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by NoSlack on Mar-08-04 at 06:57 PM
In response to message #0
There is no big mystery in the black box. There are 2 relays (up & down) and a limit switch that turns off the motor and light when you're all the way down.
Brian and I just went through his last month when he was having problems with it working intermittently. The most common problems are going to be bad brushes in the motor of corroded connections.
Where it's located, all the water that runs off the back of the engine cover drips right on the tilt motor.
I have a good wiring diagram for the 2 lead motor as well as the 4 lead setup. The drawing is so light I don't think it will scan and
e-mail very well. I'll burn a few copies at work and get one to you if you need to tear into it any further.
If you can hear the motor run but don't get any movement, you need to clean and lube the shaft that extends through the transom.
If all else fails give me a shout and I'll make some time to look at it with you.
Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#9, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Wizard on Mar-08-04 at 07:41 PM
In response to message #8
LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-04 AT 10:17 PM (PST)
I don't have a 280, but looking in my manual that also covers 280s, they do mention the following two things (not sure if applicable, just trying to help):
1. Check blue wire to flywheel housing, that is the ground. It may run through an overload circuit breaker on the transom first on newer models (a recommended add if doesn't exist).
2. Does the motor work if the plastic cover is off? If so, the cover may be pressing against the limit switch. Try to remove part of the cover that is pressing on the limit switch.
Those things are out of the manual for the 280 Electro-Mechanical Tilting Device troubleshooting. Also mentions that the motor will overheat if run up and down repeatedly. Then it takes 1/2 hour to cool down before it will operate again.
Glenn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#10, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Mar-08-04 at 09:18 PM
In response to message #9
This site rocks! We are all pretty lucky to have this type of forum to help troubleshoot these things. Most of us aren't rocket scientists or volvo scientist (except Mike Jones) but, seems like there sure is a lot of first hand experience amongst us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#12, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by moo fish on Mar-09-04 at 03:14 PM
In response to message #8
Has anyone installed some type of combing to prevent the water from running off the engine cover into the engine compartment? Everytime I lift the cover, I winch at the water running onto the steering mechanism and the tilt motor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#13, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by NoSlack on Mar-09-04 at 05:05 PM
In response to message #12
It's been on my "to do list" for about 10 years now. Never seems to make it to the top of the list before something else pops up.
Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#14, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by noquestion25 on Mar-09-04 at 05:46 PM
In response to message #12
Used some heavy weight plastic, Like car inner tube. The type I used was from a fish pond dealer. Ran a cover over the tilt motor as well as the back of the engine. It is by no means perfect but it keeps the salt off of the trim pump. All the other stuff still gets a freshwater rinse every so often. I could post a pic if you want.
No Question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#11, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Old_Blue on Mar-08-04 at 10:01 PM
In response to message #0
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-04 AT 08:14 AM (PST)
Mikes right. Mine needed a new set of brushes to cure its last episode. The one before that it was a frozen ram - the shaft that the worm driven gear pushes up and down. The guy at Matex took a look at the motor out of mine and after seeing it was made in sweden asked what it was out of. He didn't have brushes for it and had to make some. New brushes and a shot of paint were 50 somethin bucks and my drive was back in business the next day. Give that ram a shot of lube when your outdrive is in the up position, thats when the ram is fully extended. My preference for lube in water exposed areas is triflow as it outlasts WD40 when exposed to water but corrosion x or something similar would probably be better.
Mine was also surprisingly clean and corrosion free inside the black box. Another area that needed to be fixed was the plug on the end of that thick grey wire. At least one of the connectors in the plug needed to be reworked to firm up the electrical connection. That might be something to keep in mind if none of the other fixes cures it.
Doug, I haven't forgotten about the rigger blanks, I'm just buried - sorry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#15, RE: 280 Outdrive Question
Posted by Captn_Hook on Mar-10-04 at 12:56 PM
In response to message #11
Thanks for all the help guys. I will open up the black box (needs new screws anyway) and replace those relays. They are about 20 bucks at west marine. Seems as though there are a lot of different symptoms. Mine was simply dead when I would activate the switch. The light would come on but no motor and no sound. Brian, no worries about the blanks. Just let me know when I can come by or meet you some where. I made a deal with my friends at calstar to run them through their machines and refinish them if needed. I got the new instrument panel in and it looks great. I will post some pictures in a couple of days. Thanks again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#16, Problem Resolved!!
Posted by Captn_Hook on Apr-12-04 at 06:20 AM
In response to message #15
Thought I would post the resolution to the nagging 280 tilt problem. This has been going on since I posted this origionally and I just fixed it this weekend,....errr..well sort of. I checked everything you guys suggested. Wasnt the motor because it would work with a direct connection. Wasnt the damn relays because I bought and replaced them and still the same faint clicking only. I tried Scotts idea of cleaning the ground. Was already clean but did it anyway. Still nada. Decided to check the hot wire. That wire went to a hefty inline fuse and then to the big 40 amp cluser bolted to the block. When tring to unscrew the fuse holder...blink! the wire just fell off in my hand. Inline fuse holder is toast. I rerouted the power to the positive side of the coil and bingo! works. Now, do I need to replace that fuse holder or am I cool with leaving it connected to the coil. Either way is an easy fix now that I know what was the problem. I am still suprised that I would get the relays to click with a bad wire. Must have just been barely making contact. Anyway, thats that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#17, RE: Problem Resolved!!
Posted by NoSlack on Apr-12-04 at 08:25 AM
In response to message #16
The tilt motor can draw a lot of current and I don't think the hot wire on the coil is big enough. A 40 amps load should be on a #10 or a fine stranded #12 size wire.
The fuse block is on the negative side if I remember correctly. I would put it back in. You don't want a problem in the tilt motor to take out the power to the rest of the engine.
Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#18, RE: Problem Resolved!!
Posted by Captn_Hook on Apr-12-04 at 01:26 PM
In response to message #17
good advise. I found a new one in the west marine catalog. I will replace. Dont need anymore problems. Thanks again Mike. Now I am on my way to look for some flatties.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#19, RE: Problem Resolved!!
Posted by To The Limit on Apr-15-04 at 06:38 PM
In response to message #18
Doug: I have the same problem that you had. If you come to the BBQ maybe you could come down to my boat and show me what you did. The motor is OK and I hear the solenoid click when I push the switch. Thanks Dan