Import Manager
04-27-2004, 09:11 PM
#0, Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-04-03 at 02:35 PM
Hi all,
I switched to the Rotella coolant when I did my last service. Seems that it wants to leak out a lot more than the old green stuff. Has anybody else noticed this problem? I am not sure how much squeezed out but I used to have the one small leak at the turbo (which I believe is customary for the 41A) and everything else was tight. Now I have at least three or four seepers.
Another unrelated problem is that I cant get more than a couple of good hours runtime from my house batteries. Running a Shurflo Blaster and a Shurflo Baitmaster 1100 plus the Anchor light causes two group 24 batteries to drop to 9 volts or less in just a couple of hours. This is after a long run (4+ hours). The pumps continue to pump ok but everything else is in the dumps but there isn't even enough juice to run the radio.
The batteries are near new, in fact I replaced the old batteries because of this problem.
I figure I must have a short that is draining the batteries. Does anyone have any tips on tracking a short?
Thanks in advance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Nomad on Aug-04-03 at 02:39 PM
In response to message #0
I had a similar problem on one of my boats and it turned out to be an undersized wire that was feeding all of the electronics. The batteries held their charge, I just couldn't get the juice to the equipment. Not sure if this is what you are experiencing but thought I would pass it along.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Aug-04-03 at 03:52 PM
In response to message #0
Can you have someone look at your voltage meter on your electronics panel while you systematically energize/de-energize various equipment to determine which one might have a short?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-04-03 at 05:15 PM
In response to message #2
The meter is right over the circuit breakers so yes I can see what drops and what doesn't. That's the problem, nothing seems to really cause a nose dive. The pumps may be an issue but the Longfin is a trailer queen so it is hard to check the pumps under load(no water to pump).
Charlie, I'm not sure about the wire, I need to think about that. As soon as I turn the ignition to "on" and the combining solenoid kicks in, everything is peachy and while the engine is running everything works great. I'll investigate tonight, I don't remember any big wire running to the buss so I'll see. The other problem with verifying that is that after I run home the voltages all read nice and hot.
Thanks guys. Your input is very much appreciated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by NoSlack on Aug-04-03 at 07:52 PM
In response to message #0
LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-03 AT 08:41 PM (PST)
It may be a blown diode in the altanator. This is easy to check with the engine off while in the slip or on the trailer. Energize your main breaker then check to see if the altanator is getting warm. It may take 10-20 minutes before it warms up if it's a small voltage drop. If it's getting warm the current is flowing back into the altanator and draining your batteries. Any wire passing that much current will be warm to touch. Give all the wiring harnesses on the engine and in the breaker panel a feel. find the warm one and it will lead you right to the problem.
If it turns out to be the altanator be very specific when you take it in, that you need the diodes replaced or they might miss it.
Mike
http://members.cox.net/mdj1215/batteries.jpg
This is a crude drawing of my battery set up. The Cole Hersee solinoid isolates my house battery from the engine batteries and altanator when the boat is not running. I don't know if Don is still doing it this way or not. If you have any electrical questions feel free to drop me a line 619 465-1617.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#5, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-05-03 at 12:31 PM
In response to message #4
Thanks Mike. That is exactly the way mine is wired and that all works fine. There is no problem when the engine is running and by the time I get where I am going there is plenty of volts they just don't last long enough. I leave the charger plugged in most of the time so I am starting out with full batteries they're just flat within a few hours.
The main feed to the circuit panel looks to be about a #4, I would think this should be adequate but I am going to add up all my draws and see what I come up with.
I left everything on last night (circuit breakers not equipment) and I'll see what it looks like today. If there is a short I should see something as long as it is not reliant upon the water for continuity.
Thanks again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#6, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by NoSlack on Aug-05-03 at 03:09 PM
In response to message #5
I don’t have a battery charger on my boat, so I’m not sure how it would be setup to charge both bank independently. If the charger has 2 outputs then I can see it charging both banks when they are isolated from each other.
With the charger on you should read 13 volts or better on each battery. Use a hand held voltmeter to check each one at the battery posts. With the batteries charged, check the specific gravity of each cell with a hydrometer to see if you have a bad cell in one of your batteries. If you don’t have a hydrometer pick up a cheap one at an auto parts store.
Back to the cooling leaks. If your turbo leak is at the 4 bolt flange to the exhaust manifold, pick up a new style stainless steal gasket and swap it out. Fixed my small leak with the upgraded gasket last month.
Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#7, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by moo fish on Aug-05-03 at 08:13 PM
In response to message #6
Back, back to the coolant........
I have been wrestling with the coolant in my PSD Ford and have learned of this FW-16 additibve which prevents cavitation damage to the engine by laying down a layer of molybdenum on the water jacket linings. Does anyone run this stuff in their cooling system???
rt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#8, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-06-03 at 08:32 AM
In response to message #6
Mike, the charger is set up to charge both banks independently with a common negative. It works fine and charges the batteries to a full 13. It still could be a problem with the batteries themselves but checking with the hydrometer isn't an option as the cells are sealed. I may try a load test to see what they are good for.
That gasket was swapped out about a year ago. In perusing the BoatDiesel site, there were a number of owners who had this same leak before and after changing the gasket and had decided to live with it. My leaks aren't huge, after I let everything cool down there was no perceptible level change in the tank. I don't like leaks though and I just thought it strange that this occurred after switching coolants.
As far as additives go, I don't like them.
Still searching and still appreciative of all help and advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#9, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Aug-06-03 at 09:29 AM
In response to message #8
Sleighter,
Guess I'll chime in again here. I just had to repair some FWC leaks in the area you are talking about. Upon investigation while engine was running, I determined that the leaks (2) were coming from the FWC drainage tubes off of the (1)exhaust manifold and (2) from the after cooler. You might check the joints on those FWC drainage tubes. For a quick fix you can just take the tubes off, disconnect the valve stem from the tube and screw them directly into the base on the manifolds. Of course you can order the replacement tubes for about $30 each and install them eventually. I didn't think this was necessary because the valve stems still stick out far enough to allow you to drain the FWC when you are ready to do maintenance or layup. Hope that helps.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#10, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by sharkwaters on Aug-20-03 at 08:41 PM
In response to message #9
Peter, As for the electrical issue. I had a similer problem with my system. The Furuno GPS/ plotter/ sonar was shutting down intermittantly and the batteries on the house bank was discharging quickly. I found the following problems.
1- Cole-hersee switch had 5 ohms of resistence. I replaced it.
2- Positive and negative wires to the 12V panel had 2-3 ohms of resistence. Replaced both.
3- #12 wires from charger to batteries were corroded. Replaced.
4- Furuno unit had a bad board. Sent to Furuno for replacement.
I suspected that the 2/0 wires to the batteries and starter were bad and looked into changing. After checking with a digital meter, no resistence. Still using them.
Get a good digital meter and disconnect any suspect wires and check for resistence. It doesn't take very much R to cause high current draw and to discharge the batteries. Running a couple of bait pumps for a few hours should not be a problem.
Good luck.
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#11, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-22-03 at 12:42 PM
In response to message #10
Bob,
The Cole-Hersee switch? Is this the combining solenoid? Were you checking across posts.
When you were checking resistance on your wires did you put your meter on each end? I suppose you could connect your positive to your negative (disconnected of course) and then check them both at the same time.
What size wire are you running from your house bank to your distribution panel?
I don't think it is the fishfinder as even with it off I have a draw down problem.
Thanks I appreciate the help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#12, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by sharkwaters on Aug-31-03 at 01:55 PM
In response to message #11
Peter. Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've had alot going on. The Cole Hersey switch I'm referring to is the Battery on/off switch. I have one for the house and one for the starting bank. To measure resistence you must disconnect all leads to the device and discharge any capacitors (if any), and measure across the poles on the switch or even a length of wire. In the case of a on/off switch, the switch must be closed. Any resistence is not good. Get a copy of the 12Volt bible, it has a lot of good info on electrical systems. Ohms law deals with the relationship between Voltage, resistence and current (amps load). Since Ohms law is an equation, any increase in resistence has to result in a drop of Voltage. Try to use a digital meter, they are much more accurate than the cheaper ones.
The wire size of the leads to my 12V house system is 6/0. The wire size is calculated by the maximum load and the length of the run, suppy and return. The negative is the return path and must be used when sizing the wire. Any corrosion or loose connection will cause resistence to go up and drop Voltage. Use high quality marine rated tinned wire and connectors. Marinco is good. I used liquid elecrical tape and heat shrink tube. Crimp the larger size wire. Its hard to solder the large wire and will result in a bad connection.
Good luck, I hope you have already found your problem.
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#13, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Oct-27-03 at 12:18 PM
In response to message #12
Still fighting with this.
Since my last post I have replaced the mains with #6 wires which didn't fix the dead battery problem but it did make it so the fishfinder doesn't fritz out while using the windlass.
I get a max of about three hours out of two grp 24 batteries while at anchor.
The only thing running is the Shurflo 1100. The radio was on and the fishfinder.
I know how to check for leaks but can anyone recommend a method for checking amp draw on the pump while on the trailer?
Without any load I won't get an accurate representation of the amp draw.
Thanks,
Peter
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-04-03 at 02:35 PM
Hi all,
I switched to the Rotella coolant when I did my last service. Seems that it wants to leak out a lot more than the old green stuff. Has anybody else noticed this problem? I am not sure how much squeezed out but I used to have the one small leak at the turbo (which I believe is customary for the 41A) and everything else was tight. Now I have at least three or four seepers.
Another unrelated problem is that I cant get more than a couple of good hours runtime from my house batteries. Running a Shurflo Blaster and a Shurflo Baitmaster 1100 plus the Anchor light causes two group 24 batteries to drop to 9 volts or less in just a couple of hours. This is after a long run (4+ hours). The pumps continue to pump ok but everything else is in the dumps but there isn't even enough juice to run the radio.
The batteries are near new, in fact I replaced the old batteries because of this problem.
I figure I must have a short that is draining the batteries. Does anyone have any tips on tracking a short?
Thanks in advance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Nomad on Aug-04-03 at 02:39 PM
In response to message #0
I had a similar problem on one of my boats and it turned out to be an undersized wire that was feeding all of the electronics. The batteries held their charge, I just couldn't get the juice to the equipment. Not sure if this is what you are experiencing but thought I would pass it along.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Aug-04-03 at 03:52 PM
In response to message #0
Can you have someone look at your voltage meter on your electronics panel while you systematically energize/de-energize various equipment to determine which one might have a short?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-04-03 at 05:15 PM
In response to message #2
The meter is right over the circuit breakers so yes I can see what drops and what doesn't. That's the problem, nothing seems to really cause a nose dive. The pumps may be an issue but the Longfin is a trailer queen so it is hard to check the pumps under load(no water to pump).
Charlie, I'm not sure about the wire, I need to think about that. As soon as I turn the ignition to "on" and the combining solenoid kicks in, everything is peachy and while the engine is running everything works great. I'll investigate tonight, I don't remember any big wire running to the buss so I'll see. The other problem with verifying that is that after I run home the voltages all read nice and hot.
Thanks guys. Your input is very much appreciated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by NoSlack on Aug-04-03 at 07:52 PM
In response to message #0
LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-03 AT 08:41 PM (PST)
It may be a blown diode in the altanator. This is easy to check with the engine off while in the slip or on the trailer. Energize your main breaker then check to see if the altanator is getting warm. It may take 10-20 minutes before it warms up if it's a small voltage drop. If it's getting warm the current is flowing back into the altanator and draining your batteries. Any wire passing that much current will be warm to touch. Give all the wiring harnesses on the engine and in the breaker panel a feel. find the warm one and it will lead you right to the problem.
If it turns out to be the altanator be very specific when you take it in, that you need the diodes replaced or they might miss it.
Mike
http://members.cox.net/mdj1215/batteries.jpg
This is a crude drawing of my battery set up. The Cole Hersee solinoid isolates my house battery from the engine batteries and altanator when the boat is not running. I don't know if Don is still doing it this way or not. If you have any electrical questions feel free to drop me a line 619 465-1617.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#5, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-05-03 at 12:31 PM
In response to message #4
Thanks Mike. That is exactly the way mine is wired and that all works fine. There is no problem when the engine is running and by the time I get where I am going there is plenty of volts they just don't last long enough. I leave the charger plugged in most of the time so I am starting out with full batteries they're just flat within a few hours.
The main feed to the circuit panel looks to be about a #4, I would think this should be adequate but I am going to add up all my draws and see what I come up with.
I left everything on last night (circuit breakers not equipment) and I'll see what it looks like today. If there is a short I should see something as long as it is not reliant upon the water for continuity.
Thanks again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#6, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by NoSlack on Aug-05-03 at 03:09 PM
In response to message #5
I don’t have a battery charger on my boat, so I’m not sure how it would be setup to charge both bank independently. If the charger has 2 outputs then I can see it charging both banks when they are isolated from each other.
With the charger on you should read 13 volts or better on each battery. Use a hand held voltmeter to check each one at the battery posts. With the batteries charged, check the specific gravity of each cell with a hydrometer to see if you have a bad cell in one of your batteries. If you don’t have a hydrometer pick up a cheap one at an auto parts store.
Back to the cooling leaks. If your turbo leak is at the 4 bolt flange to the exhaust manifold, pick up a new style stainless steal gasket and swap it out. Fixed my small leak with the upgraded gasket last month.
Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#7, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by moo fish on Aug-05-03 at 08:13 PM
In response to message #6
Back, back to the coolant........
I have been wrestling with the coolant in my PSD Ford and have learned of this FW-16 additibve which prevents cavitation damage to the engine by laying down a layer of molybdenum on the water jacket linings. Does anyone run this stuff in their cooling system???
rt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#8, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-06-03 at 08:32 AM
In response to message #6
Mike, the charger is set up to charge both banks independently with a common negative. It works fine and charges the batteries to a full 13. It still could be a problem with the batteries themselves but checking with the hydrometer isn't an option as the cells are sealed. I may try a load test to see what they are good for.
That gasket was swapped out about a year ago. In perusing the BoatDiesel site, there were a number of owners who had this same leak before and after changing the gasket and had decided to live with it. My leaks aren't huge, after I let everything cool down there was no perceptible level change in the tank. I don't like leaks though and I just thought it strange that this occurred after switching coolants.
As far as additives go, I don't like them.
Still searching and still appreciative of all help and advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#9, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Yellowfin1 on Aug-06-03 at 09:29 AM
In response to message #8
Sleighter,
Guess I'll chime in again here. I just had to repair some FWC leaks in the area you are talking about. Upon investigation while engine was running, I determined that the leaks (2) were coming from the FWC drainage tubes off of the (1)exhaust manifold and (2) from the after cooler. You might check the joints on those FWC drainage tubes. For a quick fix you can just take the tubes off, disconnect the valve stem from the tube and screw them directly into the base on the manifolds. Of course you can order the replacement tubes for about $30 each and install them eventually. I didn't think this was necessary because the valve stems still stick out far enough to allow you to drain the FWC when you are ready to do maintenance or layup. Hope that helps.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#10, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by sharkwaters on Aug-20-03 at 08:41 PM
In response to message #9
Peter, As for the electrical issue. I had a similer problem with my system. The Furuno GPS/ plotter/ sonar was shutting down intermittantly and the batteries on the house bank was discharging quickly. I found the following problems.
1- Cole-hersee switch had 5 ohms of resistence. I replaced it.
2- Positive and negative wires to the 12V panel had 2-3 ohms of resistence. Replaced both.
3- #12 wires from charger to batteries were corroded. Replaced.
4- Furuno unit had a bad board. Sent to Furuno for replacement.
I suspected that the 2/0 wires to the batteries and starter were bad and looked into changing. After checking with a digital meter, no resistence. Still using them.
Get a good digital meter and disconnect any suspect wires and check for resistence. It doesn't take very much R to cause high current draw and to discharge the batteries. Running a couple of bait pumps for a few hours should not be a problem.
Good luck.
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#11, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Aug-22-03 at 12:42 PM
In response to message #10
Bob,
The Cole-Hersee switch? Is this the combining solenoid? Were you checking across posts.
When you were checking resistance on your wires did you put your meter on each end? I suppose you could connect your positive to your negative (disconnected of course) and then check them both at the same time.
What size wire are you running from your house bank to your distribution panel?
I don't think it is the fishfinder as even with it off I have a draw down problem.
Thanks I appreciate the help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#12, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by sharkwaters on Aug-31-03 at 01:55 PM
In response to message #11
Peter. Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've had alot going on. The Cole Hersey switch I'm referring to is the Battery on/off switch. I have one for the house and one for the starting bank. To measure resistence you must disconnect all leads to the device and discharge any capacitors (if any), and measure across the poles on the switch or even a length of wire. In the case of a on/off switch, the switch must be closed. Any resistence is not good. Get a copy of the 12Volt bible, it has a lot of good info on electrical systems. Ohms law deals with the relationship between Voltage, resistence and current (amps load). Since Ohms law is an equation, any increase in resistence has to result in a drop of Voltage. Try to use a digital meter, they are much more accurate than the cheaper ones.
The wire size of the leads to my 12V house system is 6/0. The wire size is calculated by the maximum load and the length of the run, suppy and return. The negative is the return path and must be used when sizing the wire. Any corrosion or loose connection will cause resistence to go up and drop Voltage. Use high quality marine rated tinned wire and connectors. Marinco is good. I used liquid elecrical tape and heat shrink tube. Crimp the larger size wire. Its hard to solder the large wire and will result in a bad connection.
Good luck, I hope you have already found your problem.
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#13, RE: Leaks and Shorts
Posted by Sleigher on Oct-27-03 at 12:18 PM
In response to message #12
Still fighting with this.
Since my last post I have replaced the mains with #6 wires which didn't fix the dead battery problem but it did make it so the fishfinder doesn't fritz out while using the windlass.
I get a max of about three hours out of two grp 24 batteries while at anchor.
The only thing running is the Shurflo 1100. The radio was on and the fishfinder.
I know how to check for leaks but can anyone recommend a method for checking amp draw on the pump while on the trailer?
Without any load I won't get an accurate representation of the amp draw.
Thanks,
Peter